Curse

Undivine · May 31, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamant

Personally these ideas are a bit overpowered.
My biggest complaint is the ele's long cast times. Just things like fireball @ 2 seconds, and rodgort's @ 3 seconds. Makes them very easily interupted, also making the ele basicly pointless when versing a mesmer.

Keep in mind that a buff to cast times is a nerf to interrupts.

Frankly, just about anything can be gimped by a proper mesmer built to take care of them. Warriors are helpless as kittens to an appropriately equipped mesmer, just as the ele can be gimped by a mesmer built to take care of them. Of course, the mesmer sacrafices versatility to do said gimping.

But anyway, I think the ele could use a few more short casting spells. Just not too many, as I love making eles my play-thing.

Phades · Jun 01, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

But anyway, I think the ele could use a few more short casting spells. Just not too many, as I love making eles my play-thing.

It doesnt take much if you are setup to handle a monk. Once you start slowing down already slow skills, it nearly becomes redundant at a certain point. You dont even have to bother to interupt really.

Some skills should be slow, while others fast, but there should be a really potent effect behind the slow release of the skill. The majority of elementalist skills above 2s cast time do not have an effect that justifies the cost in time given their effect. You can talk about energy costs and recast times in the same light, but not all skills need to have all aspects of them trimmed. Doing so would remove most, if not all, distinction between them.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jun 01, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Glyph of concentration ftw.
Its only 5 energy and 2 sec recharge.

Phades · Jun 01, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

Glyph of concentration ftw.
Its only 5 energy and 2 sec recharge.

First off, the skill its self can be interupted. Secondly, it costs 5e and 1s cast time, which causes it to be rather useless on cast times less than 3s due to aftercast effects. Thirdly, it only affects the effects from dazed. When referencing slowdown via mesmer means, it is commonly refering to arcane conodrum and migraine. Glyph of concentration does nothing to mitigate these effects.

It feels like dejavu. Its been brought up why this skill is bad before here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...oncentr ation
and here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=concentration
and here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...oncentrat ion

There are more im sure, but some of them are getting old. The e/mo comments are examples of antiquated skill combinations/game mechanics. The mechanics for the glyph of concentration have not changed though.

lyra_song · Jun 01, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I do like the fifth pip idea, but i think something like....it only affects only during exhaustion. or when energy is below 50% could perhaps balance it.

angshuman · Jun 01, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Forget it guys, it's not going to happen. There have been countless threads on the topic, and I am sure Anet is well aware of the problems with Eles (lack of DPS in PvP, and getting hit hard by the armor wall in PvE). If they had intended to fix these issues they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure that at least as far as PvP is concerned, they really like the Ele the way it is -- a support character with moderate spike ability.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that the real problem (if you can call it that) is Anet's vision for the game. The vision is this: Aside from spikes, Warriors running about (no leet teleporting, mind you) and banging on everyone's head should be the only consistent source of damage in the game. Everything else is support. Look at what they did to the Assassin. The moment they figured out this character could go and solo-kill NPCs effectively, they nerfed it. Why? Well, is a Sin = a Warrior running about and banging on peoples' heads? No. Then, by Anet's logic, a Sin has no business killing anything.

As an aside, the reason spike builds exist is simply because the entire game would become extremely slow and boring if individual character damage vis-a-vis health points was reduced to a level where spiking a character is mathematically infeasible.

Anet (or big daddy NCSoft) wants a Guild Wars GvG battle to look and play like a plain-old fantasy-medieval battle, with Knights in Shining Armor slaying the enemy with their swords and axes, and all the lesser subjects either supporting their own Knights directly or indirectly, or providing defense against the enemy Knights. They don't *want* other characters to be able to deal damage. Neither do they want Warriors to use underhanded shadowstepping techniques. Not because it would create imbalance issues, but because it would defy the vision. The majestic Knights must reign supreme.

Edit: I apologize for the rant-y tone. This was meant to be a constructive thread. Folks, whether you agree with me or not, please abstain from flaming, for the sake of this thread. Mods, please delete my post if you feel it is flame bait. That was not my intent.

MCS · Jun 01, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I think shadow strike should do 1000 damage and steal 1000 more if your target has over 13% life.

Seriously which kid went around telling people that eles were underpowered.

omg you know that profession that nearly every good build runs it's shit lets buff it by adding obscene bonuses to every spell. I propose that tactics gives a warrior 5% chance to block for each point in it, not just attacks, spells too, not enough people are using tactics and I think it would really help the warrior profession that are blatantly underpowered.

I'm going to go shoot people coming out of the GED testing area.

Helll is for Heroes · Jun 01, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

just make elementalists' damage swing a little greater and it would be great.

Warriors for dpm.
Eles for high damage swing output.

Esprit · Jun 01, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I like the 5 pips of energy regen for an Elementalist, though I am sure people would cry about that, wondering why monks don't get it, etc...

I wouldn't mind seeing a pip or two of energy regen show up just like health regen works, after X seconds of non-fighting, you would get those extra pips of energy regen, so that you can recover faster.

Lordhelmos · Jun 01, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

As far as eles go I played 700 hrs of my game as an ele. I love the class enough to almost unlock every skill in the game as an ele primary. As far as the damage goes I dont think thats the problem. Yes us eles are squishy we die easy. But at the same time we kill easy too. Ever see what happens to a warrior when he gets hit by an obsidian flame then charges an Ele wearing silver armor with the curser on crystal wave? I guarantee he wont get up after that. You can undo every class in this game, wars included. I mean warriors can get shut down by ONE spell. Cast ineptitude on a war and hes screwed, end of story. With that arguement said and done there is an issue I do have a problem with, and thats the useless skills in cantha that could have been made much better for eles.

THINGS IM NOT HAPPY WITH:

Energy Boon: Sucks, exhaustion eats you alive unless you want to play 55 monk with your energy bar. E prod Ftw.

Second Wind: Its like the poop stains that you get when you wipe energy boon off your crack. Its boon but even worse. Play 55 monk with your energy bar and do a balancing act with it. Too much of a pain. E prod owns this.

Lighting Hammer: You must be joking... add KD to this and it would be worth something.

Smoldering Embers: Yeah trying to light someone with this is like like peeing on a charcoal grill and hoping for a flame to shoot up. At least lava arrows isn't bad.

Vapor Blade: Good damage, but who isnt enchanted? Works great after a shatter so I wont complain too much, I just think the cost is too high. Maybe cut it to 10.

THINGS I AM HAPPY WITH:

Silver Armor: 10 seconds of great defense that also damages. Short duration to make it fair, good skill.

Shockwave: Yeah one big wave, lots and lots of itty bitty numbers that stack. Great area killer us eles needed.

Dragon Stomp: Two EQ on your skill bar? It's already a great spell so why not have 2? EQ > Mshower

Shatterstone: Finally water mages can deal some ok damage, wonder what happens when u spike this? Maybe in conjuction with a lightning surger?

Burning Speed: Chaotic suicidal and fun, lots of neat pyrobomb uses.

Gust: Lots of KD fun and iron mist (: Its like bullying a little kid.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

I dont think ele's are lacking in dmg or suck compared to any other class. I think they just need some tiny tweaks in E management to use those high powered spells more effectively. We could also use more buffing skills.

I think at heart people are complaining because they havent realized that as an Ele your weak in AL so you HAVE to depend on a monk or some supporting class like a shutdown mesmer to keep you alive. Eles are not a class made to stand on their own. There are no stand alone classes. But I think eles can be played just as effectively as any other classes. I've shutdown mesmers with KD builds, buried warriors alive with armor piercing earth spikes, and screwed even the best ranger sniper with blinding flash and things like thunderclap and glimmering mark. Eles DO NOT SUCK so go get some skills watch how real eles play in top tournaments then you will understand whats broken and whats not. Most of all realize that this is a TEAM GAME and as a spell caster with 60 AL you need support you YOU WILL DIE so start getting better at teamwork. Learn when to call for help because ELES NEED IT JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Undivine · Jun 01, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Silver Armor: 10 seconds of great defense that also damages. Short duration to make it fair, good skill.

I must say, Silver Armor puts on the hurt in an inconcievable way. Mind you, I got struck with it in the worst possible scenario. Imagine you go into a mission and your entire group is instantly wiped in a matter of seconds because your group was stupid enough to insist on bringing a minion master. I happened to be the closest target when the minions wailed on that silver armored boss.

Actually, if anything, it can be said that the ele is the ultimate in anti-MMs. I don't know why people always want to go up against spells like Starburst or Shockwave with a minion master.

....Sorry, getting off track. Perhaps what ANet needs to do is think of 2 or 3 really good roles that an ele can fill, that other classes don't have to fill, and make them the best or among the best at those roles. Spike damage really should be one of them. After all, the whole concept of the class is that they do great damage that they cannot spam. The very idea behind Energy Storage is to unload a shitstorm and then have to recover. Perhaps they are currently able to do that shitstorm, but the recovery part is what a lot of people seem to complain about.

Keep in mind I don't play the ele much. I'm no authority on the matter.

Master Fuhon · Jun 01, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by exiled mat

Though i don't like the "boost the ele attunement" thing, because one shatter enchantment ownes your complete idea

In no way, shape, or form was I refering to adding the percentage to the attunement skills. I was talking about a free 1-16% return on energy costs just for putting points into an element. This was actually a response to the "one shatter enchant owns you".

This game has alot of new user friendly skills (the ones like Mending), where they are balanced for the purpose of just putting it on yourself for a matter of time and not worrying about it. If you want to talk about PvP friendly enchantments, then you're thinking about protection skills, where you put the enchantment on and it has it's effect over the next few seconds. These are about micromanaging your character, which is similar to what you should get with the glyphs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

Glyph of concentration ftw.
Its only 5 energy and 2 sec recharge.

Glyphs in PvP ftl.
You'll see alot of stuff about glyphs needing cast times reduced because it's taking two skills to get the job of one done. The elementalist spells are already plagued by "what's going to happen in 2 to 3 seconds?". In that time, will people still be bunched up so that my spell has it's greatest effect? Is anyone trained on me as I begin casting this spell? Using a glyph not only shows the enemy that you are going to be casting withing a limited amount of time, but it also increases the chance that you missed your best opportunity to maximize the effect of your spells. Nothing is more user friendly right now than a stance.

The natural attunement idea has added changes to the attunement skills. In effect its just a way of circumventing the 5,10,15,25 rule of skill costs. By doing the math out, it amounts to getting less than a pip of energy regen if you were to only use elementalist skills. Also notice by affecting the elements themselves instead of making changes that only one class can enjoy (armor/energy storage), you will reduce the controversy from making the elementalist the only class that can naturally regen better.

Minimum spell costs for the elements (will be the same for all elements)
These changes are occurring from energy return on using skills, so you would still need the original spell cost to use in the first place. I am rounding the energy returns to the nearest integer to figure these calculations.

no energy management skills
4 cost @ 10 air
8 cost @ 15 air
13 cost @ 10 air
21 cost @ 14 air

with non-elite attunements
3 cost @ 0 air
5 cost @ 15 air
8 cost @ 14 air
14 cost @ 12 air

with elite-attunement (changes proposed only allow one attunement)
2 cost @ 0 air
3 cost @ 15 air
5 cost @ 14 air
9 cost @ 12 air

finally, a comparison with the current practiced infinite energy scenario, which will no longer be allowed
dual attunement spells = 1 cost, 2 cost, 3 cost, 5 cost

There doesn't seem to be a way to give an elementalist a conditional pip reward for using elemental skills, whether through exhaustion or through energy storage. I also found that my idea would be giving lower returns on the 15 energy cost spells, which are the ones people have nightmares about (lighning orb/blinding flash) The other ideas still are doing nothign to facilitate the change in the role of the elementalist that many would like to see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Seriously which kid went around telling people that eles were underpowered.

omg you know that profession that nearly every good build runs it's shit lets buff it by adding obscene bonuses to every spell. I propose that tactics gives a warrior 5% chance to block for each point in it, not just attacks, spells too, not enough people are using tactics and I think it would really help the warrior profession that are blatantly underpowered.

If you attribute sheer power to running and support, you are outclassed by a ranger/warrior and monk in each individual category. Power has more to do with damage and disruption, and those are the forte of mesmers, warriors, and rangers again. Elementalist are powerful at hindering characters(air/water), but so are necromancers, mesmers, and rangers. That leaves only spike, but you can't spike anyone good to death on your own.

I disagree with those people who think that its a matter of giving the toy (pip) to the baby to get him to stop crying. Every caster wants that pip. And your Warrior balance changes.... nice. Could it be that one class is actually balanced, despite having weaknesses to blind and hexes, and the only thing that should continue to get fixed is the distribution of skill use. A caster still can only get off one spell in the time a warrior can close the distance. Imagine if every decent adrenaline warrior build needed skills like Flourish, where you stop mid battle to refresh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

I'm going to go shoot people coming out of the GED testing area.

Dramitization of your testing process regarding elementalists: Well, we still see them sometimes don't we? And they aren't spiking anymore either. Our work here is done. Good job all around people!

Skill changes aren't getting people to change their skill bars. Skill buffs aren't changing skill use. I mean, I did notice that Dwaynas Kiss has that nice little bonus on enchanted/hexed characters when using it. But how can you have a Vigorous Spirit change without Aura of Restoration, even if it's still not good enough to use.

Ensign · Jun 01, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

There's no need to get fancy.

A theoretical elementalist with three copies of Fireball on his bar would be a good character.

Take a skill, and sit it next to Fireball. If the skill is laughably worse, improve until a cost/benefit analysis of the two skills can be done with a straight face.

Repeat for all skills. Chain if neccessary. (I.E., Fireball compared to Dragon's Breath, compared to Firestorm, compared to Meteor Shower, compared to Searing Heat.)

Peace,
-CxE

Trylo · Jun 01, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

I must say, Silver Armor puts on the hurt in an inconcievable way. Mind you, I got struck with it in the worst possible scenario. Imagine you go into a mission and your entire group is instantly wiped in a matter of seconds because your group was stupid enough to insist on bringing a minion master. I happened to be the closest target when the minions wailed on that silver armored boss.

I WAS just about to put my story when that happened, it was a sad sad sight. Except it was only me and an MM left in RA, and we were both spiked cuz i was a earth spike and he was getting shutdown by a mesmer or ranger i think... MM + Silver Armor = INSTAKILL. Its the best anti-mm skill ever.

ON TOPIC:
I was very pleased with shatterstone and gust, i want them both on the bar at a time

I agree anet wants to glorify the war, im sorry to say it, but i beleive it. Eles dpm is much worse, dps is ok i guess, im not doing the math

but try out mark of rodgort, if they made that something other than a hex (not an enchant though) like a preparation or something, then i would defineatly go strait back to fire, very fast. 4 seconds of flaming death after my wand? isnt that what a ranger does? give the ele some melandru love

Cjlr · Jun 01, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There's no need to get fancy.

A theoretical elementalist with three copies of Fireball on his bar would be a good character.

Take a skill, and sit it next to Fireball. If the skill is laughably worse, improve until a cost/benefit analysis of the two skills can be done with a straight face.

Repeat for all skills. Chain if neccessary. (I.E., Fireball compared to Dragon's Breath, compared to Firestorm, compared to Meteor Shower, compared to Searing Heat.)

Peace,
-CxE

Yes, Ensign, you're still a genius. Elementalists' great skills can be summed up fairly succintly.

Ether Prodigy.

If you want to get wordy, you can add Fireball, Obsidian Flame, Kinetic Armor, Lightning Orb, and uh, Meteor Shower. Now, there's a few more good ones, but there are so many skills that are too expensive, too conditional, too slow, too unreliable, or just plain bad.

Not that that can't be fixed. Fireball, a solid little offensive spell (10e, 2s cast, 100 damage on target + adjacent, 7 second recharge), originally cost (back in the day) 15 energy, and took I believe 15 seconds recharge. Or was it 15? Anyway, it's been improved. Theoretically the same could be done for the rest of the mediocre pack.

Therlun · Jun 01, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

I'm somewhat surprised you take Fireball as an example for a "good" Ele-Spell.
IMO its the mending in the Fire line...
It has not enough punch to be a spike, too long cooldown to be more than supportive damage and a much too long casting time to be considered an effective offensive tool.
I can see that if you hit enough enemies with it the damage will be quite large alltogether, but in any situation other than a bunched up group of softies I see Fireball as a "big flare" only.
The fire lines offers a good variety of damage to the clever player other than the theoretically large multi-target AoE damage.

back to topic though:
I'm also more and more convinced that this whole "Ele is underpowered" topic is turning into a self fulfilling prophecy.
The Ele HAS a problem with direct damage, but the more people discuss about it the bigger the problem seems to get.

The Ele faces following problems:
-high damage reduction through armour,
-mind boggling slow casting times,
-long recharge,
-high energy cost,
=>in comparison spells with too little of an effect.

The point about the Ele balance is that most of the spells have several, if not all of above drawbacks.
And it is either impossible or very wasteful for the Ele to balance them out.

I dont mind high energy cost if the the spell is worth the investment.
But even a spell with a very good effect in itself wont be an effective weapon if it has slow recharge AND long casting time AND high energy cost.
Sadly, most of the Ele spells just have most or all of these weaknesses, in the fear of Ele spike power.

For balance I would suggest giving Eles better abilities to balance those weaknesses out at their own will, perhaps in the form of (much more worthwhile) Glyphs.
That would also help making the Ele more unique.

The idea to give them a 5th pip of energy is madness IMO.
It will just encourage the use of an ele primary spamming secondary skills.

So to get my point again:
Not energy management in itself is the problem of the Ele, nor is casting time, recharge, armour reduction or low base damage.
The problem of the Ele is the simultaneous appearence of all of these points for most of his spells, with no worthwile way around them.

echo envitas · Jun 01, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Man I'm going to be flamed with this one..

Okay, so I've long thought that elementalists need some major work. We're supposed to be the top damage dealers in the game...
I've read your ideas/comments above and they're really good.
However...
At least from my perspective, it appears that the elementalist as a class unto itself isn't that bad. I mean we have damage, AOEs, armor spells... My ele is actually my favorite char. At least in PVE.
What the real problem, imho, appears to be is the elementalist as compared to other classes, particularly the warrior.
The fact that warriors can do better damage than elementalists per second using no skills, as well as having the best armor in the game is where the problem resides.
My solution?
Nerf warrior damage abit. At least in some way, I'm sure ANET could balance it right. What do you guys think?
/duck

Symbol · Jun 01, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

No, it's already difficult enough getting past ultra efficient monk healing as it is. The last thing I want to see is long, death-less games that continue until one side rage quits out of boredom.

Warriors do the "right" amount of damage IMO. It's elementalists who need to be brought up to that standard (in some sense, if not sustained dps, then spike).

Therlun · Jun 01, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

No, it's already difficult enough getting past ultra efficient monk healing as it is. The last thing I want to see is long, death-less games that continue until one side rage quits out of boredom.

QFT

The game already evolves around monks and ways to handle them.
Reducing damage dealt will make it just more boring.

bam23 · Jun 01, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I think Attunements should be stances. They are easily stripped and your energy management is gone for the next ~30 seconds, then you reapply it, then it's stripped again. Many enchantment removals recharge before Attunements do.